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How about some closure on "Start Error"

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2.8K views 37 replies 7 participants last post by  M4rCu5  
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#1 · (Edited)
▶❓I fully realize that site is built around those who merge problems with answers...so, this❓ means that, in my mind, these answers are needed before I surrender to an Indy or MB shop. Any help here on ❓'s answers would be appreciated.
▶IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SOLUTIONS, SKIP TO THE COOKBOOK BELOW FOR ANY UPDATES ON WORKING TOWARDS A SOLUTION. IT STARTS AT BEING MARKED WITH AN ▶
Background:
2nd time I've been here for this reason and expended way too much time in looking for a newbie summary and cookbook fix...

Yes, after many car battery charges and jump starts, a new battery was put in; A Walmart MAXX at a 2023 cost of ~$200 and this was last done 5 years ago at not more than $80....But, anyway, that action is likely to have caused some malfunction to creep onto the key coding not being recognized...right?
Or, could it be due to the recent solar flare and EMR spike?

The last time this happened was 2 years ago in the same block in Salt Lake City; resulting in a tow to a European car Repair shop and a couple days later, I left with an $850 bill and had a K40 Module replaced...w/ a lot of diagnostic hours...

So, maybe the location where it is happening is in some kinda contrasting vortex hell unlike Sedona...(?) At this point, I can easily see where VooDoo got popularized...

The first issue I find is that, none of the many "Start error" threads I've found are Not open for further discussion...So, after trying to digest the pearls in these threads; I'm Starting over...

Hopefully this thread will help to start to develop a logical sequence of steps to actually, Efficiently and Inexpensively Fix the problem...But that will need input from those many experts here on slkworld to help decide the order of solutions when we see the dreaded "Start Error"?

So far, I've learned the most from watching the 2 related YouTube videos under the post related to the company "Needswings" which offers, potentially, the ultimate fix, but not cheap and convenient. Questions still Do remain about the order of diagnosing for solutions and, this is certainly something that Needswings could do another video on:
So, here are possible solutions. Now what order should they be in?
▶THE NOVICE COOKBOOK SO FAR USING JUST A KEEN SENSE OF THE OBVIOUS!
1. ▶ First, suggested to check your car battery for full charge. I've used one of those inexpensive bubble testors so a lil fluid from each cell can be pulled up into a medium sized tube with a squeeze bulb and the # of balls floating tells the %age of charge in that cell.
2.▶Then, YES, consensus seems to be next is to try the other key! If one shows No Start Error. Resync the bad key following the simple video instructions below of 2 button pushes of a second 'tween pushes. (❓ WOULD IT HELP TO PUT THE KEY IN THE IGNITION BEFORE RESYNCING OR WOULD THAT MAKE THINGS WORSE❓)
I'm still not sure if the failure of one key automatically shuts off the other one...Still testing out that hypothesis...! But, I would think that they should be independent of one another and each have the same code n Not be influenced by the other... ❓So, how unusual would it be for neither key to work?❓ Wouldn't that indicate it's a keyring issue of not matching❓Or, I have no idea, at this point, of where the K40 or SCREEM enter in here?❓And, I'm not sure that possible code errors, if any, should show up as cleared with this step?❓▶NA YET
3. Is the next step to replace the fobs batteries? ▶NO-NOT RELATED TO START ERROR; ONLY OPENS N LOCKS DOORS!
And, is it possible that, even leaving the batteries out of the fob for a few secs may let something reset?
▶NO!
4. ▶Next, do we disconnect the battery to get another chance to start? ▶YES, 3O MINS IS THE ANSWER!
❓What errors if any does this clear in the code reader?- NA
▶QUESTIONS: DOES THIS RULE OUT THE KEY'S TRANSPONDER AS A PROBLEM? WHAT IF I STARTED WITH #2 SET FIRST?❓NA... I WILL DISCONNECT BAT AGAIN N TRY.
Is this a permanant fix or temporary?❓ ▶IN MY CASE IT WAS TEMPORARY AND ONLY ALLOWED TWO MORE TRYS, each time, TO START WITH ONE SET OF KEYS BEFORE GETTING A START ERROR AGAIN. SO THIS BATTERY D/C can be done as often as you have patience. AND THE OTHER SET WAS DEAD UPON TRYING IT...

4. RE fuses #35 and #37 under the hood have been mentioned as possible related culprits so, resetting or cleaning their contacts may help. ▶ YES #35 and #37 have been validated as the fuses in question. So clean em up and try em again. Also, if not sure follow the suggestion below to check connection or, I might check resistance, if possible between one leg of the fuse and the female metal side of the fuse holder on the same side while the fuse is installed. That work?
#5. QUESTIONS REMAIN:
❓I must have missed this info somewhere in the other threads: I'm not sure how the K40 interacts with the SCREEM (immobilizer)...? And, isn't this important to know to be able to interact thoughtfully with the shop...or not?❓
❓And, does the alarm get involved? Why doesn't it Scream at first sensing a theft?❓ How is it bypassed or turned off in this process?❓
❓ Will all of these components throw a code if defective for easy ID?

Pending these answers, I may not be able to put off getting the codes read any longer: An Indy shop owner gave me the name and number of a fellow who has a mobile service van with a lot of electronics and, he will come and reprogram and resync what's needed for $200 to $250.▶ NOPE, THIS WAS A DEADEND; THE ONLY ONE HE COULDNT FIX WAS MERCEDES❗

▶6. Next, I am down to conceding and, either dragging it to an INDY MB/Euro shop...(but booked up 2 weeks of this Summer when I'd like to be out n trolling!) or an MB dealer to get codes read n then buy the necessary parts n have installed and/or the programming needed n done. If it happens to be only programming needed, I do have the option of comparing prices n working with Needswings, who can do reprogramming of keys, key ring and immobilizer reprogrammed/resynced; All must match up! But, then I have to add in the cost of towing home again.
Seems costs for Needswings start at $400 up to $700 and that is to skip to either/or a new SCREEM (❓SAME AS THE IMMOBILIZER?), key fobs and ignition key ring as offered by the Needwings site above...
▶ Then, I believe replacing the K40 module is still a possibility as that was Diagnosed and replaced 2 yrs ago with a lot of labor for $850. I haven't looked up its location and function yet...
❓Nor, do I know if that can that can only be tested with a code reader or can it's functions be measured some other way?

❓What genuinely surprises me is that, for so many others on this site to have had trouble with Start Errors, why haven't I seen a definitive solution? All I see is lot's of time-consuming trial and error unless a commitment is made to just immediately concede to haul in for code reading...

❓Lastly, it seems that the immobilizer function was eliminated in newer models.
So, why hasn't a way been figured out to bypass the immobilizer with a jump wire to complete and fake a healthy circuit?❓
When I was flying, it was done all the time in homebuilt aircraft where an FI auto engine is used and a lot of sensors are bypassed...❓

So, help me Out here please; if you see something skipped in the troubleshooting process to help a layman to diagnose and fix this persistent, time-consuming, frustrating and oftentimes very expensive problem? TBC

❓Now, no analysis would be complete without 1.) first figuring out how to prevent this failure in the first place?❓ Is changing the auto battery or charging/ jumping it causing a surge that is messing with the transponder synching and, how is this possible on something that I thought was akin to an EPROM or...is this just VooDoo thinking?❓ If so, what is the best way to avoid this. Removing the #35 and #37 fuses prior to a jump and/or charging? Perhaps grounding something?❓
Lastly, 2.) What role does the K40 module play in this; like what happened last time?❓And the SCREEM Module?

PS: All the 's in the above Cookbook need closure for those in the future...If you see/know a solution, msg me here with a ❓and I'll intend 🙏🏼 to get it added...;o)
 
#2 ·
Start error is mostly when the key (transponder chip inside the shell) can not provide the correct code to the coil around the "keyhole".
Have you dropped the key?
Have you replaced the shell?
Mentioning key batteries - they are used to send radio signal, the transponder chip has nothing to do with that!
Jump starting the vehicle could well be the main reason for something important to be fried.
Jumping back in time replaced solenoids, have you spoken with that garage now?

We have wiring diagrams and the correct fuse can be found there! Have you checked?

To your questions
1 yes try the other key (if you have second) in case the coil receives the correct key code you can start the car. Different key wouldn't make difference.
2 central locking signal is what needs them batteries. Not applicable here
3 30 minutes are usually sufficient.
4 try measuring the mentioned fuses. Negative of the test lamp to ground and the other end on both sides of the fuses equally bright light is a must.

5. Best diagnostic tool is SDS. That should be the next step.
 
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#4 · (Edited by Moderator)
BaD_81 said:
Start error is mostly when the key (transponder chip inside the shell) can not provide the correct code to the coil around the "keyhole".
Have you dropped the key?
Have you replaced the shell?
Mentioning key batteries - they are used to send radio signal, the transponder chip has nothing to do with that!
Jump starting the vehicle could well be the main reason for something important to be fried.
Jumping back in time replaced solenoids, have you spoken with that garage now?

We have wiring diagrams and the correct fuse can be found there! Have you checked?

To your questions
1 yes try the other key (if you have second) in case the coil receives the correct key code you can start the car. Different key wouldn't make difference.
2 central locking signal is what needs them batteries. Not applicable here
3 30 minutes are usually sufficient.
4 try measuring the mentioned fuses. Negative of the test lamp to ground and the other end on both sides of the fuses equally bright light is a must.

5. Best diagnostic tool is SDS. That should be the next step.
Click to expand...

▶ANSWERS/COMMENTS ARE MARKED THIS WAY!
▶
Well Played DaDude...that is the kind of info needed...When I get it going, I'll try and complete the Cookbook points by including your thoughts and in a better order of sequence...Please feel free to let me know if my translation is off...


-yes, with this car being over 20 years old the fob has been dropped a few times...ha

Start error is mostly when the key (transponder chip inside the shell) can not provide the correct code to the coil around the "keyhole".
Have you dropped the key?
Well Played DaDude...that is the kind of info needed...When I get it going, I'll try and complete the Cookbook points by including your thoughts and in a better order of sequence...Please feel free to let me know if my translation is off...

Answers:


-yes, with this car being over 20 years old the fob has been dropped a few times...ha
▶-Glad you spoke up about the "transponder in the shell" as, the inside of my fob shows NO green chip as described in another post. That must have changed in some production year...So, it must be imbedded...

Have you replaced the shell?
▶Nope, had the car since 2009...

Mentioning key batteries - they are used to send radio signal, the transponder chip has nothing to do with that!
▶thanks for clarifying that point!

Jump starting the vehicle could well be the main reason for something important to be fried.
▶Yes, I at least jumped it one time but did use charger 1X for Charging Start too...I had one prior event up in the mountains a couple of weeks ago where it didn't keep running after 2 secs...but third time worked (?), thank Gawd!
Jumping back in time replaced solenoids, have you spoken with that garage now?
▶ That is to be a future conversation.

We have wiring diagrams and the correct fuse can be found there! Have you checked?
▶No, is the fuse labeled for "key ring" and "SCREEM"? I don't believe that was a fuses label when I looked on #35 and #37 fuses that were suggeted as the source of the problem...

To your questions
1 yes try the other key (if you have second) in case the coil receives the correct key code you can start the car. Different key wouldn't make difference.
▶Related question: somewhere in all the threads on this subject, someone suggested a reset of the fobs by pushing one fob button 2 times; the lock or open and that would reset something...(?)
2 central locking signal is what needs them batteries. Not applicable here
▶Okay, makes sense, TY!
3 . 30 minutes are usually sufficient.
▶Okay, TY
4 try measuring the mentioned fuses. Negative of the test lamp to ground and the other end on both sides of the fuses equally bright light is a must.
▶Yes, makes sense to check conductance
5. Best diagnostic tool is SDS. That should be the next step.
▶I have a cheap, simple version. Is this something only Mercedes will have?
Thanks for jumping in with some gr8 info!
 
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#28 ·
Am I wrong in thinking that, since I have 2 keys and immediately neither worked that, it would be highly unlikely that a transponder chip in both would go missing? Tho, possible I understand...I hesitated with the odds of acrually not finding it vs. my damaging something that had been functional, under the upper compartment that has never been opened and, I thought there was a point where the chip was embedded in the keyfob plastic but, that would have been more recent years...
 
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#17 ·
Yes will do, thank you, and put that suggestion.at the top of the list...tho that battery is 2 weeks old and Ive used the he11 out of it since it hasn't been running!
 
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#16 ·
Well aren't you a genie at keeping track of thangs! Yup, all I was able to do is confirm that at least #35 and #37 fuses are in the right place to be a factor. But, in looking thru the following diagrams, I thought they were numbered like the fuses so, ever found to what runs to what but, wouldn't do me.any food anyway...Okay, I gotta get something else done today while a dead car waits for an easy solution...TBC
 
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#19 · (Edited)
Rofa said:
From a guy who really does know what he is talking about post, #8 No start error
Click to expand...
You are referrig to the comments of Dave2302 right? He does sound well-informed an assured that this is always the solutiond...Except fot giving the owner the satisfaction of having tried, that would make all the other possibilities futile.. However, it also does require jumping right into a more expensive fix!
The questions to ask at this point are: 1.) What is the meaning of these ID'd causeses for errors he mentions:
"car needs SDS (nothing else will do), and first need to see what the " (immobiliser) "Drive Auth" is doing by looking at "Drive Authorisation" in DAS / RF Module (IFZ) and Motor ECU (ME)"
2.) Is SDS exclusive to MB or is it available in most repair shops?
3.) I wouldn't think that the SDS would test the key transponder. If that is true, trying to fix or resync the key sounds fruitless...▶So, is it true?
4..) If this problem is associated with some form of surge what protections could be done to prevent this; say, with a battery changeout or disconnect...Would something as simple as removing #35 & #37 fuses during battery install possibly help... or grounding one of the vulnerable parts?

We are getting some satisfying answers here from many involved owners who must have encountered this Start Error before! This is an amazing guaranteed capitalistic enterprise for MB and way better than a patent or copyright; it lives on forever! ARRGGGHHHH!!!!!
 
#20 · (Edited)
Many Indy repair shops have SDS. Many folk on here also have it. It's fairly expensive, but not hugely so; mine cost me around A$1,300 (US$875) including a second hand laptop. There's a lot of information about SDS on here if you care to search. I haven't used mine much (great for me that I haven't needed to) but for problems like yours it could soon pay for itself. Ask questions on here about how to get it if you're interested in getting one.

Here's one link: A brief Noob Guide to SDS to get you going :)

Another one: DAS/STAR Coding - DAS/HHT: USE AT OWN RISK
 
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#25 · (Edited)
i appreciate your thoughful observations and common sense, Avel Du and, also thank Dave, Rofa, BaD_81, Mr4rCu5, Australian and all the others for their timely and inciteful thoughts.

Makes me a believer in the value of that SDS code reader and Dave!

Then the Mr4Cu5 link to the above "Resolved" issue was the final piece to 1.) understand the complexity of the vocabulary, needed skill and Persistence to realize that, I am well in over my head for a home fix beyond using eyeballs...2.) realize that I hadn't dug deep enough in the forum threads nor used the search term "Start Error and Resolved" to find this last source that validated I was only shallowly Reinventing the Wheel.

I, like the many others with Start Errors were hopin' to cut thru all the multiple thread suggestions here n find a home cure...but, I guess I recognize the need to go on the hunt for an Indy shop nearby with the right SDS, n drag Mercy one more time.

▶THE QUESTION NOW BECOMES, What level of SDS code readers are minimally necessary for this fault? What do I ask the shop for? Mentioned has been the XENTRY SDS system... And the Mercedes.

Following that, I believe the defective area and /or part will be found and then, deciding who supplies the part(s) and labor...

I'll come back to this forum thread list, n clean it up, reference Dave's need to cut to the chase with an SDS scan and the "Resolved" thread n put the scanner in as the final solution. Anything else is just wasted time for this Noobie...

Australian said:
Many Indy repair shops have SDS. Many folk on here also have it. It's fairly expensive, but not hugely so; mine cost me around A$1,300 (US$875) including a second hand laptop. There's a lot of information about SDS on here if you care to search. I haven't used mine much (great for me that I haven't needed to) but for problems like yours it could soon pay for itself. Ask questions on here about how to get it if you're interested in getting one.

Here's one link: A brief Noob Guide to SDS to get you going :)

Another one: DAS/STAR Coding - DAS/HHT: USE AT OWN RISK
Click to expand...
AM I hearing you right that this XENTRY SDS is the top of the line and is the same as or as good as the Mercedes SDS system? Is this what I need to be looking for at an Indy garage?
 
#23 ·
Not every issue has one simple, or even expensive, fix.
That is why you are not getting a one hit quick fix.
For a simple example, headlight not working. Could be bulb, earth, wiring, switch, fuse etc etc

Not only is Dave an absolute guru, but the other members involved in this thread are pretty darned good too.
I've had the privilege of having a coffee at Dave's shop. Both he & it are professional.

Remember, you are asking members for free, who volunteer their help.

If you visit an MB workshop you may well find they have nobody able to problem solve the R170, nor 171 as those techs have moved on. AND YOU PAY FOR THE EXPERIENCE.
 
#26 · (Edited)
www.slkworld.com

SDS Buying Advice, (very long but lots of answers to...

This is a very long post, I have given consideration to trying to trim it, but tbh as SDS can be a minefield when considering buying, I feel it is well worth a member looking for the kit to read all of it, as there are so many answers to common questions in this post !! It would be a good idea...
www.slkworld.com www.slkworld.com

And

www.slkworld.com

HHT

@Dave2302
www.slkworld.com www.slkworld.com

Plus many others...... but those are a good start.
 
#30 ·
1. Ascertain that the Battery is good to go
2. Unlikely to be BOTH Transponder Chips - you're fortunate that you have TWO Fobs tbf
3. Check wiring from Transponder Ring to DAS Module (SKREEM)

If all OK, that leaves the DAS Module and the ECU and probably time to talk to the Pros
Josh at The MSS in the States is fast getting a great reputation as being the best and probs would be my next port of call ..


Mercedes Swap Shop (themercedesswapshop.com)
 
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#33 ·
M4rCu5 said:
1. Ascertain that the Battery is good to go
2. Unlikely to be BOTH Transponder Chips - you're fortunate that you have TWO Fobs tbf
3. Check wiring from Transponder Ring to DAS Module (SKREEM)

If all OK, that leaves the DAS Module and the ECU and probably time to talk to the Pros
Josh at The MSS in the States is fast getting a great reputation as being the best and probs would be my next port of call ..


Mercedes Swap Shop (themercedesswapshop.com)
Click to expand...
OM Gawd...As you suggested, this is The Answer, M4rCu5! I will do just that a quick peak at the Ring to DAS connection and then Josh is absolutely the answer to getting, what sounds like a permanent fix for getting the Start Error! Thanks for filling in the final piecesn of the puzzle! Bettern waiting 2 weeks to get in here to a Euro Indy shop at who knows how much! Well played in a timely way, sir!
 
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#37 ·
The secret is getting room behind the. IC...It seems to be on a short leash and don't wanna break it or connectors...Luckily was able to get a couple of fingers on the DAS to pop it up and move it up closer to the peephole...
Was able to check the connections between ring and DAS and they were solid...
The pictures really helped to see where the lock tab is at and the direction of movement...Will give it another go this aftrn...
So, more persistence needed... I'm So close...
Yes, M4rCu5, agree with your pic labeling ie: "fashion accessory"...
 
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